OldDaveNJ

  1. @Beanpole -- Men typically support women because men are typically are the primary income-earners ... though that is less true than it used to be. In any spousal maintenance payment calculators I could find, they are completely gender-neutral.
    February 18, 2013 5:37 am on Jones says he'll vote for gay marriage
  2. Whether CIVIL marriage is between a man and a woman is precisely the issue being debated. You can't assume the conclusion you want as the starting point of your argument; that is logical nonsense. Also, nobody has suggested that it be changed to mean "any pair." There are very specific 14th-Amendment arguments that are unique to same-gender couples. And having laws that prohibit same-gender marriage, based strictly on a preference for your religious views over the views of the millions of those who hold differing religious views that favor same-gender marriage (or those who hold no religious beliefs at all) IS favoring one over the other, and is precisely what the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment was designed to prevent.
    January 01, 2013 6:25 am on Illinois gay marriage bill is part of string of deception
  3. "The Founders believed in an all knowing creator" -- as do many, many people on both sides of this issue now. Not very relevant to the topic at hand.

    "Then what if in the future two men and a women want to marry? Who are we to say thats wrong?" -- It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether supporting their relationships through the granting of certain rights/benefits/protections serves the purposes behind civil marriage, whether they are fundamentally excluded from participating, and whether there is any overriding reason to discriminate based on the general good. They can make their case in court, but the 14th-Amendment arguments would be very different. It's not even clear they are being discriminated against, since a polygamist can enter into a civil marriage with any one partner, get benefits/protections on a par with any other couple, and live happily with all.

    "The fact is marriage is Biblical." -- No, that is not a fact. Marriage has existed in some form or another in most cultures and most times in the history of mankind ... most having never even heard of the Bible. And civil marriage in the US is not, nor has it been, fundamentally tied to any religion.

    "If we as a society say everything is ok. Then at what point will we say thats the line." Nobody has said everything is OK. And the line is decided based on the usual ways issues are decided under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, using non-religious criteria such as psychological and social-science research.

    Everything else -- Laws are set up not so much to legislate morality, but instead to protect the rights and well-being of citizens and fight for the common good as per the US Constitution.
    January 01, 2013 6:20 am on Illinois gay marriage bill is part of string of deception
  4. We are talking about civil marriage here, and civil marriage is not fundamentally tied to procreation. And the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment precludes the enactment/perpetuation of laws that establish a preference for the religious beliefs of one group over the views of others with differing beliefs. So your points about God and the human race are irrelevant on a couple of levels. As for homosexuals (and SSM supporters) in general ... I can assure you that in general they believe there is nothing wrong with loving, committed same-gender relationships.
    December 31, 2012 12:37 pm on Illinois gay marriage bill is part of string of deception
  5. I would be very interested in seeing some actual news accounts of examples where SSM proponents said civil unions were all they wanted. I hear this assertion occasionally, and while there may be isolated examples, I don't believe I've actually ever seen one. Similarly for the claim that SSM proponents deceived people regarding religious liberty and freedom of conscience. I've certainly seen claims by SSM proponents that the ability of churches to practice their beliefs as they wish in their own private worship spaces would not be affected ... and that continues to be the case. I've never seen them say that private businesses serving the general public (i.e., places of public accommodation) or religiously-affiliated organizations receiving money from or licensing to perform services for the government would be exempt from anti-discrimination laws. It sounds to me like it is the IFI that is developing a string of deception.
    December 31, 2012 10:15 am on Illinois gay marriage bill is part of string of deception
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